I'm pretty sure it is because of the stress of the separation, but we're fighting...
We never used to fight, ever...
Maybe that wasn't the best way to deal with life before and is making it hard to deal with everything. We're not fighting as in throwing things to each other, just yelling over misunderstandings, misinterpretations of actions. But when we weren't fighting we weren't talking either, she said she just didn't know what else to say.
Who are these two strangers who had it so seemingly altogether at one point?
Opening up is hard for me. I don't bury my head in the sand or anything but I might a well with my body language and lack of response so I have to push myself to talk. We actually sat down on Monday evening to talk without fighting about the pain and fears. I keep hearing that the kids are heartbroken, they can't deal with things, yet I've talked to the kids and while they are not happy about what is going on, they are doing their best to understand and be supportive as much as they can---maybe we are looking at two different things--I don't know. I offered yet again if this is too much to bear, then why are we separating? Can't we try to stay together for everyone's sakes and see what we can make out of life?She said she'd think about it and we felt much better afterward.
A couple of busy days came and went. She talked to me last night and told me that she doesn't think it is a good idea to stay together, what happens if we're back in the same boat in 3 months, 6 months, 1 year? She says putting the kids through this seems pretty unbearable, I think she is projecting herself on the kids---they seem more able to keep it together than the two of us can---. Frankly, I share her feelings, I don't want to go around in circles and be back in the same place. She told me that she doesn't want me to stay because of guilt and pity, whatever we have to deal with, we might as well do it now...
I feel guilty for putting them through this and I feel guilty wanting to stay together. I keep hearing how much this has destroyed her as a woman and as a person, if only I had done this sooner, earlier...I told her this is the very reason I had put things off for so long, there was never going to be a good time or painless way to get through it. There are days I honestly wished I could just be run over by a train instead of having to deal with this. I asked if it makes it any better even by a slight margin that I haven't cheated or that I'm not doing this because there's someone already in my life? It does help some I guess.
I know as painful as this is, someday we'll all be better off and hope/pray for when the day gets here. So we're looking at the week after the kids are off school. I've scheduled time off work that week but honestly I am not looking forward to it getting here...
Friday, May 29, 2009
Monday, May 25, 2009
Updates and Milestones...
Well, not all of it has been bad. Way too much stuff going on and yet it seems like time is moving at the slowest pace ever...I suppose there has to be a reason.
I talked to my brother on the phone yesterday. He is in Seattle and was planning to come down for the weekend but his plans fell through. He is my only brother (I have 7 sisters) so I knew he would be one of the first people I would come out to officially. He was very surprised, but he offered his unconditional love for me over and over. He asked me questions to help him understand my journey and is sad about the separation, but overall his support and love are more than I can probably expect at this time and I'm grateful for his positive response.
My son found a classmate whose father is also gay and the family has gone through all of this. The classmate also told him that it will be ok, eventually things will feel normal, whatever normal is. My son just about made my day the other day as I was driving him: He said he was doing alright, but understandably is having some difficulties because he doesn't see me as "the average dad"; I asked him if that was a good thing or bad? He said it was a very good thing!!!
My wife talked to her best friend and told her what is going on and the reasons. I feel that now that she has had a chance to vent with someone she is able to process things a little better. I told her I was very close to calling her friend myself, explaining everything at the risk of having the friend kick my ass or send someone to do it, but that her friend really needed her...I bought the book "The other side of the closet" for my wife at the request of my therapist and at least for now she is pretty disgusted with the stories on the book, seems that's all she wants to focus on, maybe later she'll realize the real point of the book.....sigh
Two steps forward and four steps back...
I talked to my brother on the phone yesterday. He is in Seattle and was planning to come down for the weekend but his plans fell through. He is my only brother (I have 7 sisters) so I knew he would be one of the first people I would come out to officially. He was very surprised, but he offered his unconditional love for me over and over. He asked me questions to help him understand my journey and is sad about the separation, but overall his support and love are more than I can probably expect at this time and I'm grateful for his positive response.
My son found a classmate whose father is also gay and the family has gone through all of this. The classmate also told him that it will be ok, eventually things will feel normal, whatever normal is. My son just about made my day the other day as I was driving him: He said he was doing alright, but understandably is having some difficulties because he doesn't see me as "the average dad"; I asked him if that was a good thing or bad? He said it was a very good thing!!!
My wife talked to her best friend and told her what is going on and the reasons. I feel that now that she has had a chance to vent with someone she is able to process things a little better. I told her I was very close to calling her friend myself, explaining everything at the risk of having the friend kick my ass or send someone to do it, but that her friend really needed her...I bought the book "The other side of the closet" for my wife at the request of my therapist and at least for now she is pretty disgusted with the stories on the book, seems that's all she wants to focus on, maybe later she'll realize the real point of the book.....sigh
Two steps forward and four steps back...
Saturday, May 16, 2009
Coming out of the closet or dragging the family into it?
We're dealing with a few issues here, I don't know what other bloggers have experienced and if I may be doing the right thing or not.
So we told the kids the reason for the separation. I've tried to be as open with them as I can. I know they see and understand things completely different. Their main concerns are for how are their lives going to change. My 10 yr old daughter voiced her concern for when other kids at school talk to each other and about each other: "That's so gay"---well it touches a raw nerve. We've tried to explain that kids don't say that because of her, or know anything about me and it is purely an expression that doesn't mean anything, yet it bothers her. It seems that after talking to her it gave her some ways of dealing with it, so that might help. Still it is hard for her to deal with having a gay day--whatever that means...
My 15yr old son's friends have noticed his angst and are asking what is wrong with him. He told me he doesn't know what to tell them. I told him he can share as little or as much as he wants with them, but at the very least he can tell them of the separation--I've told them he can tell them the reason or not, it is not his fault, it is not something he has caused--I still don't think he feels comfortable talking about the gay part, but he was surprised how many of his peers have gone through parents splitting up and he has at least found simpathetic ears and feelings.
My wife has told most of her family about the split up but not the real reason why. Of course she is affraid that her family will blame her for our splitting up since as she said, they all think I'm such a nice guy!---sigh! I'm thinking that I may need to come out to more people (at least the close ones) so they can stop guessing and possibly start supporting those who need the support more. I don't know if by coming out of the closet to my wife/kids I ended up dragging them back in...damn it! I keep screwing things up royally!!
My wife and I are talking a bit more openly. I'm as assertive as I need to when it comes to work and other aspects of life, yet when dealing with conflict with her I clam up and can't say a word. I am learning to share; it is hard and I have to force myself to do it, I am also talking about my fears (loneliness), hopes--hope that we can make it alright through this, fears--fears that everything will just blow up in my face one of these days. One of hers (and she says the kids) fears is that they won't know how to deal when the day comes that I find someone and want to share my life with that person. I have told them that I'm dealing with so much right now that this part isn't even in my radar right now....if and when the time comes we will just have to cross that bridge when we get to it, but at the moment we're seriously dealing with much bigger stuff.
I've had a couple of very helpful sessions with my therapist. I'm finding ways to deal with the past, present and future, but it still hurts like hell and sometimes all I can handle is the next day or even the next hour, and all I can think about is that it will all be OK in the end...it has to!!!!! This is already getting long...
So we told the kids the reason for the separation. I've tried to be as open with them as I can. I know they see and understand things completely different. Their main concerns are for how are their lives going to change. My 10 yr old daughter voiced her concern for when other kids at school talk to each other and about each other: "That's so gay"---well it touches a raw nerve. We've tried to explain that kids don't say that because of her, or know anything about me and it is purely an expression that doesn't mean anything, yet it bothers her. It seems that after talking to her it gave her some ways of dealing with it, so that might help. Still it is hard for her to deal with having a gay day--whatever that means...
My 15yr old son's friends have noticed his angst and are asking what is wrong with him. He told me he doesn't know what to tell them. I told him he can share as little or as much as he wants with them, but at the very least he can tell them of the separation--I've told them he can tell them the reason or not, it is not his fault, it is not something he has caused--I still don't think he feels comfortable talking about the gay part, but he was surprised how many of his peers have gone through parents splitting up and he has at least found simpathetic ears and feelings.
My wife has told most of her family about the split up but not the real reason why. Of course she is affraid that her family will blame her for our splitting up since as she said, they all think I'm such a nice guy!---sigh! I'm thinking that I may need to come out to more people (at least the close ones) so they can stop guessing and possibly start supporting those who need the support more. I don't know if by coming out of the closet to my wife/kids I ended up dragging them back in...damn it! I keep screwing things up royally!!
My wife and I are talking a bit more openly. I'm as assertive as I need to when it comes to work and other aspects of life, yet when dealing with conflict with her I clam up and can't say a word. I am learning to share; it is hard and I have to force myself to do it, I am also talking about my fears (loneliness), hopes--hope that we can make it alright through this, fears--fears that everything will just blow up in my face one of these days. One of hers (and she says the kids) fears is that they won't know how to deal when the day comes that I find someone and want to share my life with that person. I have told them that I'm dealing with so much right now that this part isn't even in my radar right now....if and when the time comes we will just have to cross that bridge when we get to it, but at the moment we're seriously dealing with much bigger stuff.
I've had a couple of very helpful sessions with my therapist. I'm finding ways to deal with the past, present and future, but it still hurts like hell and sometimes all I can handle is the next day or even the next hour, and all I can think about is that it will all be OK in the end...it has to!!!!! This is already getting long...
Monday, May 11, 2009
Crash and burn...
What a weekend it has been....
First off, I spoke to a church leader to get some advice--his advice was sound, but didn't offer much hope. He said that marriages like mine typically don't survive...
Then I went to a therapist recommended by a friend of a friend (love how that happens). She again gave me some statistics, about 50% of marriages dissolve as soon as the gay spouse comes out and the other 35-40% a year or two after, because they really work hard at making a life, but in the end, no success either. She did point out that the remaining 20% or so do make it, but it was the couples that were best friends and of course understood the odds and were committed to each other 100% in all possible ways. She also advised that if we were separating, we could tell the kids the reason why, or not, depending on how we saw their maturity level. I'm going back to meet with her this week, seems I will be able to get a lot out of these meetings.
My wife and I talked until late hours one night wondering if we may possibly be part of the 20%, all the reasons why we thought we might be able to make it in our version of a mixed-orientation marriage, things were looking somewhat up even as of Friday morning...
Then she went to her therapy appointment...
When she returned she was in shreds and things went more or less like this:
Wife: "I want to know if you love me"
Me: "Yes, of course I do"
Wife: "I know you care deeply for me, you'd do almost anything for me and the kids"
Me: "Yes I would"
Wife: "I want to know if you only see me as a friend for hanging out, co-parent, roommate, someone to share bill-payment and care for the children only or if the're is a chance you see me as anything else, a partner, a lover, the love of your life..."
Me: looking down, knot in my throat, tears rolling down my eyes---no words came out.
Wife: "I have friends and relatives I can do all the things I'm talking about, I need a completely dedicated spouse/lover/partner who sees me the way I want, nothing else will do"
Me: "I'm sorry, I just don't think I can offer that, I've honestly tried for all these years do give you what you want, I just don't have the capability do do it"
She said that her therapist advised her to tell the kids as we saw fit understanding that they might react in weird ways or possibly not. She thought that we should tell the kids that afternoon before I was supposed to go out of town with my son. We got the kids, sat them down and I told my 10 and 15 yr olds: "Guys we have somethings to share with you and also bad news to tell you. The first of which is that I am gay". My son sat there stunned. My daughter started to cry and we tried to console her as much as we could. We talked about how it wasn't their fault, nothing they ever did, it didn't mean they were gay either. We were about to share the second 1/2 of the news, but they figured it out before we were there, my daughter sobbed and I saw a tear come out of my son's eye about our separation. Of course we were all crying by now. It was a long and painful conversation, lots of things were said...
But in a jist we told them we loved them so much, we cared for each other still and would do everything possible to make this as painless (yeah, I know) as we could. We told them they'd be able to ask anything, voice their fears and concerns, it wasn't pretty but we also explained that it wasn't fair to them to live in a home where there was so much unhappyness. In the end they seemed to understand that it is for the better. I told my son if he did not want to come on the trip w/me he didn't have to, but he said: "Oh no, I'm still going, when do we go?" My daughter's only request was that we please do not give her any step-parents, she has friends who have to deal with this and she said it is hell...we told her no step-parents to deal with...
They asked who is taking the dog? : ) I told them I'll probably end up taking it, because that's almost the only sure way I'll exercise, but the dog can also come and go as everyone sees fit. It was nice to end with some laughter in between the tears. My son and I took off for the weekend, I checked on my daughter by phone a few times in the evening and on Saturday...
Now the real dirty work starts....
First off, I spoke to a church leader to get some advice--his advice was sound, but didn't offer much hope. He said that marriages like mine typically don't survive...
Then I went to a therapist recommended by a friend of a friend (love how that happens). She again gave me some statistics, about 50% of marriages dissolve as soon as the gay spouse comes out and the other 35-40% a year or two after, because they really work hard at making a life, but in the end, no success either. She did point out that the remaining 20% or so do make it, but it was the couples that were best friends and of course understood the odds and were committed to each other 100% in all possible ways. She also advised that if we were separating, we could tell the kids the reason why, or not, depending on how we saw their maturity level. I'm going back to meet with her this week, seems I will be able to get a lot out of these meetings.
My wife and I talked until late hours one night wondering if we may possibly be part of the 20%, all the reasons why we thought we might be able to make it in our version of a mixed-orientation marriage, things were looking somewhat up even as of Friday morning...
Then she went to her therapy appointment...
When she returned she was in shreds and things went more or less like this:
Wife: "I want to know if you love me"
Me: "Yes, of course I do"
Wife: "I know you care deeply for me, you'd do almost anything for me and the kids"
Me: "Yes I would"
Wife: "I want to know if you only see me as a friend for hanging out, co-parent, roommate, someone to share bill-payment and care for the children only or if the're is a chance you see me as anything else, a partner, a lover, the love of your life..."
Me: looking down, knot in my throat, tears rolling down my eyes---no words came out.
Wife: "I have friends and relatives I can do all the things I'm talking about, I need a completely dedicated spouse/lover/partner who sees me the way I want, nothing else will do"
Me: "I'm sorry, I just don't think I can offer that, I've honestly tried for all these years do give you what you want, I just don't have the capability do do it"
She said that her therapist advised her to tell the kids as we saw fit understanding that they might react in weird ways or possibly not. She thought that we should tell the kids that afternoon before I was supposed to go out of town with my son. We got the kids, sat them down and I told my 10 and 15 yr olds: "Guys we have somethings to share with you and also bad news to tell you. The first of which is that I am gay". My son sat there stunned. My daughter started to cry and we tried to console her as much as we could. We talked about how it wasn't their fault, nothing they ever did, it didn't mean they were gay either. We were about to share the second 1/2 of the news, but they figured it out before we were there, my daughter sobbed and I saw a tear come out of my son's eye about our separation. Of course we were all crying by now. It was a long and painful conversation, lots of things were said...
But in a jist we told them we loved them so much, we cared for each other still and would do everything possible to make this as painless (yeah, I know) as we could. We told them they'd be able to ask anything, voice their fears and concerns, it wasn't pretty but we also explained that it wasn't fair to them to live in a home where there was so much unhappyness. In the end they seemed to understand that it is for the better. I told my son if he did not want to come on the trip w/me he didn't have to, but he said: "Oh no, I'm still going, when do we go?" My daughter's only request was that we please do not give her any step-parents, she has friends who have to deal with this and she said it is hell...we told her no step-parents to deal with...
They asked who is taking the dog? : ) I told them I'll probably end up taking it, because that's almost the only sure way I'll exercise, but the dog can also come and go as everyone sees fit. It was nice to end with some laughter in between the tears. My son and I took off for the weekend, I checked on my daughter by phone a few times in the evening and on Saturday...
Now the real dirty work starts....
Meeting the family...
I was lucky to have been able to meet Bravone last Friday evening.
I literally drove by, got a big hug from him, visited for a few minutes and took off as I wanted to reach my destination before dark. Bravone is a sweet, caring man. We didn't have much time to talk at all, but he was able to share a few of his points of view. Although it was for a very short time, I feel honored to have been able to meet him and feel his amazing spirit. He even gave me a few pointers on how to reach my destination faster, which were spot on!!!
I literally drove by, got a big hug from him, visited for a few minutes and took off as I wanted to reach my destination before dark. Bravone is a sweet, caring man. We didn't have much time to talk at all, but he was able to share a few of his points of view. Although it was for a very short time, I feel honored to have been able to meet him and feel his amazing spirit. He even gave me a few pointers on how to reach my destination faster, which were spot on!!!
Sunday, May 3, 2009
Moho Marriage: Having your cake and eating it too...
I wonder if it is possible to have one's cake and eat it too?
1. Being a gay Mormon man
2. Having the fairy tale temple wedding--hey guys also want those!!!
3. Having children, extended relatives and possibly friends who may/may not understand all the complications
Some people see it as a total contradiction, a heressy of sorts.
How can a gay person meet their basic individual needs (cultural/intellectual/belonging to a group of sorts)
Sexual needs are probably in a category by themselves. Sure some gay men may feel fulfilled by just knowing they are gay and somehow living a celibate life, according to LDS policies. Some men may find a fulfilling sex life with their straight spouse---may be true in the earlier years of marriage, after all the drive is definitely there, but at least from personal experience and other's that I've read, this diminishes with time and it may drive an ultimate wedge in the marriage--blessed are those that can still manage this side of their lives, in my opinion!
It this fair to the straight spouse--the innocent bystander? Is it fair to the marriage, the emotional/physical/spiritual relationship? I can probably agree that if there's full disclosure before marriage and the person accepts the potential challenges that being with a gay person will bring in their personal lives at some given point. I feel horrible for the spouses --like mine-- who never got the chance to make a fully informed decision due to my insecurities and unfounded expectations that by marrying in the temple and being able to have sex the feelings would go away.
Is it fair to the possible children to be put in the middle of this ship that is more than likely destined to sink?
What about other close relatives (in-laws) and close friends?
I have had advice from some Moho's by email and by comments and the opinions are about split evenly. Some say it might be possible to have a mixed-orientation marriage if both parties exercise a lot of forgiveness, communication, charity and work together. I even went as far as asking someone from work who is a LDS ex-stake president, of course I told him about "a friend of a friend who is going through this"--he said that in his experience, these kinds of marriages don't survive, the odds are horribly stacked against them.
Frankly, I do not see lot of hope out there, but I am still not giving up without a fight. I've been fighting for almost 16 years, is there a time when i say enough, I can't keep fighting anymore?
I'd be interested to hear the possible of experiences of anyone who reads this and cares to comment. Again, if you'd rather do it direcly by email, it is on my profile.
1. Being a gay Mormon man
2. Having the fairy tale temple wedding--hey guys also want those!!!
3. Having children, extended relatives and possibly friends who may/may not understand all the complications
Some people see it as a total contradiction, a heressy of sorts.
How can a gay person meet their basic individual needs (cultural/intellectual/belonging to a group of sorts)
Sexual needs are probably in a category by themselves. Sure some gay men may feel fulfilled by just knowing they are gay and somehow living a celibate life, according to LDS policies. Some men may find a fulfilling sex life with their straight spouse---may be true in the earlier years of marriage, after all the drive is definitely there, but at least from personal experience and other's that I've read, this diminishes with time and it may drive an ultimate wedge in the marriage--blessed are those that can still manage this side of their lives, in my opinion!
It this fair to the straight spouse--the innocent bystander? Is it fair to the marriage, the emotional/physical/spiritual relationship? I can probably agree that if there's full disclosure before marriage and the person accepts the potential challenges that being with a gay person will bring in their personal lives at some given point. I feel horrible for the spouses --like mine-- who never got the chance to make a fully informed decision due to my insecurities and unfounded expectations that by marrying in the temple and being able to have sex the feelings would go away.
Is it fair to the possible children to be put in the middle of this ship that is more than likely destined to sink?
What about other close relatives (in-laws) and close friends?
I have had advice from some Moho's by email and by comments and the opinions are about split evenly. Some say it might be possible to have a mixed-orientation marriage if both parties exercise a lot of forgiveness, communication, charity and work together. I even went as far as asking someone from work who is a LDS ex-stake president, of course I told him about "a friend of a friend who is going through this"--he said that in his experience, these kinds of marriages don't survive, the odds are horribly stacked against them.
Frankly, I do not see lot of hope out there, but I am still not giving up without a fight. I've been fighting for almost 16 years, is there a time when i say enough, I can't keep fighting anymore?
I'd be interested to hear the possible of experiences of anyone who reads this and cares to comment. Again, if you'd rather do it direcly by email, it is on my profile.
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